BP spill more toxic than admitted... 9/11 asbestos redux

Well, in the specific case of the BP spill, BP is 100% responsible. The U.S. can be blamed for giving them permission to drill that deep, but the reality is we trusted them to be acting in good faith. It's clear those BP asshats could care less about anything but cheap drilling rights and oil. I err on the side of BP being blamed. Especially considering their inaction in the aftermath. If they truly cared about cleaning up this mess without an eye for profit I bet this could have been solved in 1/2 the time it's taken. Or it could have been avoided entirely by BP saying "Hey, thanks for giving us the rights to drill. We're going to make sure we do it right so we'll take our time..." But they didn't

As far as consumer behavior goes, my feeling is a global economy is inevitable, but it's hard to know what is the best way to educate consumers on the basics. And that's even patronizing. You can't really educate folks to say no to plastic bags because it's convenient, so you need to either give them a more convenient option or perhaps charge a tax to stores for bags so there's an incentive for stores to give out bags on a case-by-case basis and not out of some robotic checkout training reflex.

Also, the only aspect of plastic being prevalent that upsets me is there is no real organized effort in the U.S. to do better recycling. Other countries really take recycling seriously and do a good job. The U.S.? Nadda. I hope some scientist can develop some bacteria that can breakdown plastic the way wood and metal can be broken down. If that could happen, major problem solved.

Oh whatever. I'm old.

 

I'm really not defending BP, I swear.
BUT! that line in particular is a touch insane.
Are you really suggesting that corporations have ever acted in a way that would engender trust? Or that there is some kind of assumption of trust that has been broken?
Corporations have lawyers who poor over these documents/laws and work with the committees/lobbies that bring these to the law makers and ensure that there are ways around things.
To be honest, BP has gone above and beyond it's legally required duties to rectify the situation.

Again, I'm not defending them, I am pointing certain things out in an effort to make people see this in a different, clearer light.
My gripe and where I lay the blame for this is with the corporations, the law makers and the consumers. No single body is responsible.

 

The contractors might be - but they're American
The rig owner might be - but they're American
The CEO might be - he's a single person and therefore easier to hate on

So under pressure BP cancels its share dividend but the rig owner pays our theirs and it goes uncommented on. Once again it's one rule for what's considered a US firm and another for one considered to be (but actually not) foreign.

I love how Americans (BTW not all and certainly not directed at any one person on here) and the American media can moan about this happening without realising the irony of firms having to drill so deep because some many people drive around in some of the most poorly engineered cars on the planet that do about 20mpg. And then fall apart after 3 years and are repalced.

You make your bed....

 

Yeah, but you're from London, so your view doesn't count either, you're probably watching lefty liberal media like the BBC.

 

Sorry, to me this is like saying that only the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were responsible for what happened there, not anyone else.

The comedian Doug Stanhope puts it well. In April, if we were magically shown a picture of what would happen if BP tried to drill using the faster/cheaper methodology, everyone would be horrified and say, "No, don't do it!" If we were told it would mean everyone in America would have to sacrifice and not drive their cars for a week, we'd turn on a dime and say, "Fuck the leak! Drill, goddamnmit!"

And metal breaks down? Not in our lifetimes.

 

I'm not really going to argue with you here, but are you suggesting that it's because of American cars being poorly constructed that we rely too much on oil? If that's the case, I'd have to completely disagree with you.
In the past, American cars have had a bad track record. Currently, they are surpassing some of the Japanese automakers with efficient cars. Does that mean all of them? No, but they are working really hard to build new cars that are more fuel efficient, and in some cases, completely electric.

Why don't you ask the Chinese how they would feel about an oil spill because they are currently surpassing America in purchases of American cars made by General Motors.

I just looked at a list of top mpg cars, and two of the top 5 are American, and I imagine the other 3 are made in America.

1 Toyota Prius 51/48
2 Honda Civic Hybrid 40/45
3 Ford Fusion Hybrid FWD 41/36
4 Mercury Millan Hybrid FWD 41/36
5 Smart Fortwo Convertible & Coupe 33/41

I'm really not trying to be a dick, but that argument is completely weak and baseless. You think the American media moaning about it is bad? What about the people who live there who make a living off of the water and the coast?
They don't have a right to complain about it? Give me a break.

Toyotas don't use gas? Hondas don't use gas? Your life in a big city doesn't require fuel? Maybe that bus you took to work today?
No other countries in the world use fuel ever? Yikes.

 

atease, you need to reread his post, that's not what he's saying. He's not trying to argue about the cars Americans make, he's arguing about the cars Americans drive. There's a ridiculous amount of SUVs and giant pickup trucks on the road that are ridiculously fuel-inefficient (not to mention it takes more resources to manufacture them).

What makes this worse is the American attitude. After 9/11, when we were gearing up for war, what did our president do? Instead of asking people to save and do things like conserve fuel, he urged us to "keep america rolling," and then the government offered tax breaks on SUVs and other trucks that were so generous that you could even make money on buying one.

 

Ah ok, I misunderstood. In actuality, I despise American cars because of having clunkers when younger.
I just don't like the whole "american press bemoaning it" comment because there are truly people who deserve to be complaining in this crisis. Those people don't all drive SUVs..they need to be able to complain.

I agree with you Roger, our government really screwed up during those years. Selling the wetlands, bad SUV rebates, etc...I suppose that cash for clunkers program isn't really great in hindsight, but at least it did encourage people to buy more fuel efficient cars.

sorry...i should read more closely before I have coffee.

 

I'm gonna guess what gforce meant here is less about the press "complaining" per se and more about how the US press tends to do that.
More often than not it's in an incredibly excitable manner without ever really giving you a "fair and balanced" report, covering various sides of the issues.
US news appears sensationalist and dumbed down from an outsiders point of view. Not help by my aforementioned tendency to finger point (often literally and shouty) and ignore other issues.
No one is saying that the rest of the industrialised world isn't involved in the consumerist culture, it's just they aren't screaming and shouting and placing blame elsewhere.
And most certainly there is no one, save for the big businesses involved, who isn't concerned for the locals and how they are effected.

I often make the same mistake, sometimes at the other end of the day after too many beers

 

hey guys back from a little break...first thread ive read since coming back, good to see it boiling down to some of the elders not sure if i want to jump into this, just wanted to say that I watched GASLAND last night, geez shouldnt have watched that before bed, feck so who's got one of those buggers near them?
http://gaslandthemovie.com/

 

Damn. That guy lighting his water, from his kitchen faucet, on fire is crazy madness!

 

This whole "we're all to blame" argument reminds me of the South Park episode where Stan crashed a boat and "caused global warming", and at the end admits to it only to have the entire town bleating "I caused global warming". But Stan was to blame in that episode and BP is to blame here.
There are direct and indirect causes - BP directly caused this to happen, and our lifestyles indirectly led to this. But just because we all rely on oil doesn't mean that we're to blame. Our lifestyle doesn't mean that an oil spill of this magnitude is inevitable. This was caused by corporate carelessness, not by people driving Hummers.
Also, nobody has mentioned that the oil companies go to great lengths to ensure that we're dependent on oil. The public doesn't really care about HOW power is generated, we just want our conveniences to BE powered. Currently they're powered by oil because the oil companies have stifled alternative sources of energy (and alternative sources of transportation). But if you could run cars on urine you can bet that people would be pissing in mason jars.

 

I'd be draining diapers into my tank ala Doc Brown and have a hose hooked right up to my wang as I drove long distance. It'd save so much time!

 

But then the price of bottled beverages would soar. Who can afford 4 dollars for a Coke?

 

I bet you could get an octane boost by eating asparagus.

 

on the subject of americans and plastic bags, I just had a customer buy a pinata and 5 silly bands and asked me for an extra bag for the silly bands, yep that is america, we suck

 

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, But.


You are implying that consumers are brainless ants with no power, which I think we can both agree is not correct.
Supply and demand. Remove or change your demand.
BP were facilitated and allowed to operate in a careless manner. The facilitating party may not be guilty of murder, but certainly should be held accountable for manslaughter.
BP relied on a stop valve that was produced by another company, that stop valve failed, that other company happens to be Haliburton. Like it or not (rocket I'm looking at you) they do have friends in high places who pull strings.

 

Unfortunately I can't agree with you on this.

In theory I agree with you. But you can't actually put this into practice on a large enough scale to change the demand. Our infrastructure was created to consume oil (thanks in large part to the oil companies). It's unreasonable to ask the American public to stop using it - or to even drastically reduce their use of it. It HAS to come from the government forcing the change. There are only so many individuals that have the ability to reduce their oil consumption - luckily I happen to be one. When gas first skyrocketed I bought a motorcycle to reduce my gas usage. And recently I've taken the next step and am now bicycling. But if I worked in the suburbs (where most people work) there's no way I could bike to work. If I lived in the suburbs I couldn't ride my bike to the grocery store (even living in the city I drive once a week to buy the bulk of our food).

Again I partially agree. Those who facilitated in creating weak laws/regulations are indirectly at fault. But regarding Haliburton - yes, as a subcontractor/supplier to BP they are also directly responsible.

 

It's about education.
Yes people are stupid, but if people were informed consumers, they would be able to take things into their own hands and effect the chain of supply and demand.
It's happened in the UK, sometimes as you say below, from the state down, but just as often from the ground up.
Now an argument can be made that the UK only has 60mil people. But, the idea of a group of united states was that each state maintained a level of independent control, as recently demonstrated by Arizona.
If a state took the decision to charge people for plastic bags, like they do in Ireland, you would see a pretty speedy reduction in the rate at with bags appear on your high streets or parks. Alternately, a large chain store could decide to take matters into their hands and make a store wide policy to reduce the bags they hand out.
Tescos over here make their bags biodegradable, or at least somewhat.
McDs stopped using styrofoam, partly because of legislation, but also due to public pressure.
These changes are possible and not stupid hippy shit day dreamy bull either.
The UK has an astounding array of vegetarian food available, in corner shops and high street fast food places. All restaurants (save for the occasional one) offer veggie options. Those are changes brought about by educated consumers.
Consumers are educated by giving them even handed accounts of the issues, which brings us back a couple of posts...
To say that you can't demand, expect or ask Americans to re-evaluate their consumption levels is to give them carte blanche to run riot across this planet that they share and depend on for every element of their existence.

I'm not sure indirectly is correct.
As mentioned on the Gaslands site, there's a loophole referred to as the Haliburton Loophole.
I'm not entering into the lands of nutters and conspiracy theories when I wonder what decisions an oil man, in charge of passing legislation, will make and if they will be in the best interests of the country, people, environment and even in this case, the local economy he claims to be helping.

Thank you for intelligent debate, I'm enjoying this

 

Believe it or not there are tons of companies out there that behave like responsible members of society. Not every company is out to screw you.

Case in point: There was a pretty nasty coal mine disaster that included the parent company Massey Energy disabling methane detectors and other safety equipment. Every other major coal company is now working with the federal government to shut those guys down. Why? Because this one massive bad egg is ruining the whole industry for everyone. Yes, I'm sure there is a wee bit of "Let's get rid of the competition." in this push, but the fact remains that Massey Energy has one of the worst safety records in the business; everyone else plays by the rules and respects the rules because they are sane.

You know the difference between a sane business and an insane business? Sane businesses are in it for the long haul and never sell themselves short. Insane businesses are doomed to fail from day one.

The oil industry could actually learn something from the coal industry. Who thunk!

 

I actually really like the idea of charging for each use of "garbage" (ie, grocery bags). Recently our local chain super market sent coupons to their customers for 2 free reusable cloth grocery bags (they now sell them for $1). I love this! And another more health-oriented grocer gives you a 5 cent rebate (or you can donate it to one of two rotating charities) for each bag that you provide, be it reusing a paper bag or using a reusable cloth bag. There are certainly companies out there that act in a more socially responsible way than others (of course they're also benefitting by reducing their costs).
Living in Portland I've been seeing people use cloth grocery bags for years - there was a strong, but still small, ground up movement to reduce plastic/paper bags. But it took the companies to really make it take off to the extent that it has, and there are still a lot of people using plastic bags. That's where I think the government can step in and create a 5 cent bag tax (we have it for cans/bottles already). I honestly don't think that consumers will change their behavior as much if the store charges 5 cents, versus if the government charges 5 cents - nothing like a little government taxation to get peoples attention!
As much as I snicker about Portland's "green" status I do see that we're way ahead of the curve as far as the US goes. My bro/sis-in-law live in NC (maybe pickle can chime in?) and they say that while they have recycling service hardly anyone uses it. They moved from Oregon, so they recycle, but apparently their friends in NC make fun of them for it.
Previously I was just commenting on oil, and I still maintain that we as a nation cannot create a change in our oil consumption without government control. On smaller things like bag, food packaging, etc I agree with you that we have more control at the individual level. But as I previously stated, with oil we're at the mercy of our infrastructure.
Cheers!

 

In the case of Abu Ghraib soldiers in a clear command structure were told to behave a certain way, did so without question, did sick things, and they ended up taking the bulk of the blame (ie: patsies) while those in charge got away with a scratch.

In contrast BP is not in a clear command structure. They act as an independent company. The promise they have the skills to control drilling. But when push comes to shove, they can't.

And Halliburton and other sub-contractors are still the responsibility of BP.

BP is 100% to blame for this.

What logic is that based on? The reality is that every engineer on the rig who knows trouble when they see it told them to stop. BP said no based on their costs for drilling. BP's greed and arrogance is the real root.

You want cheap oil? Maybe we should start cutting executive pay in companies. How much of the $2.50-$3.00 per gallon people pay goes towards stuffed shirts who get paid far more than their underlings. Here, read this and learn where a lot of the money you pay for anything goes towards nowadays:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/must- ... employment

In some parallel world, at the moment BP would have said "This isn't going well, let's cut our loses and see what's up..." but they didn't.

Okay, you are correct. But metal exists in the real world as a base element. Plastic simply does not. The person who discovers a way to degrade plastic down to something more useful will win the Nobel prize and truly change the world.

 

The logic that says no event takes place in a vacuum. BP wasn't out in the middle of the ocean because they thought it would be a fun thing to do. They did it because they knew that there was a country that would gladly slurp up whatever they could suck out of the ocean floor as long as they did it fast and cheap.

I'm not really sure where you're going with this but the drawback to any recycling or de-manufacturing process is that they require energy, sometimes more energy than it takes to create those things. And where will we get that energy from?

Face it, we're fucked until we figure out a better way of doing all of this. And quite frankly, I don't think we want to.

 

But big oil has major influence and keeps the government from making a change that will move us away from oil dependence. The oil companies and auto makers have routinely shot down the government's attempts at passing legislation to improve MPG ratings. So yes, the govt has failed due to the greed of those elected. And I guess that brings us full circle to blaming ourselves for electing these scumbags.
I think the consumption of hybrids is showing that we're in support of alternative energy - but there isn't anything on the market, that can compete with gas-based engines, for us to buy. Exxon (or whichever) bought the technology that the only viable electric car was based on, and they shelved it. Even if a new electric car is developed that has the range/speed/price/performance to compete with a gas engine, it will fail unless there is an infrastructure in place before the car hits the market.
I'm actually shocked at the short-sightedness of the car manufacturers and the oil companies. They have the resources to lead the way on green transportation, and would make a tremendous amount of money by doing so. But I guess it's easier to continue what they're already doing, and they're already making a tremendous amount of money.
I still think that at some point, unless a major company decides to forge the way, the govt will have to take the first step and lead us down the road to renewable energy. This is by biggest complaint with Obama - I thought it would be perfect if he focused on this issue rather than healthcare as it would (a) create jobs, which would improve the economy, and (b) move us away from our dependence on [foreign] oil, which is a big ticket item for increasing national security. The iron was hot when the car companies simultaneously failed - a perfect opportunity missed.