When someone says that Japanese vinyl is "the best," what specifically does this mean? What specifically makes Japanese vinyl better? Why is Japanese vinyl better? For example: Are different materials used (i.e., is the chemical composition of the vinyl different)? Is it how the figures are formed? The thickness of the vinyl? The quality of the molds? The overall quality control? Or are we talking about artistry? The design, sculpting and painting of the figures? My guess is that there may be just as many "crappy" toys coming out of Japan as China. So when someone says "Japanese" vinyl is best, or that the best vinyl comes out of Japan, is that in reference primarily to the smaller "boutique" companies like Secret Base, Blobpus, etc., or is it meant to apply across the board? How many people would actually be able determine where a toy was manufactured (e.g., Japan vs. China), if presented with unfamiliar and unmarked figures to identify, just by feeling them (sort of like a blind wine tasting). Or be able to determine where a toy was manufactured without touching it, just by looking at it? Precious few, I would expect. I am not questioning the "Japanese vinyl is best" proposition; rather I am trying to understand the facts (and/or fictions and emotional responses) behind it. To me, a beautiful high-quality toy is a beautiful high-quality toy regardless of where it is made. But it is fun to peek behind the curtain a little to see what is really going on. There certainly is a lot to learn! What are your thoughts?
Some interesting points there, I think the last paragraph sums it up though. As 9 times out of 10 if it was beautiful high quality it would be coming from japan. Especially clear vinyl as china can't do it a high (or even decent) standard.
geo, I think you need to chill. don't get all caught up in the hype of where a toy is made or by whom. buy what you like and be done with it. your over analytical mind is taking away the joy of owning toys. stop thinking about it so much and just relish in the line,form, and color of that toy you've just acquired. we're all here because we share a love for japanese vynil. if you like things made in china (aint nothing wrong with that), i'm sure there's a message board for that too somewhere.
after having handled over 1000 different toys from japan and china in my hands in real life.J vinyl is MUCH better quality, cleaner, brighter,smoother. The clear cannot be replicated anywhere else. the 'fit and finsh' is superior. Paint jobs are basically perfect etc etc etc. theres no comparison. HIGH LEVEL of quality control. Medicom and some toy2r stuff made in China comes CLOSE in quality but it cannot be matched.
I agree. The difference is often unmistakable. With the Chinese toys, I often see little striations all over the piece, where the material congealed in layers before solidifying in the mold. Even if you totally exclude the factor of difference in paint jobs, there is a palpable difference in the quality, smoothness, smell, and tolerances of the toys manufactured in one country versus the other. You get what you pay for, I guess. The trade-off is obviously less expensive manufacturing costs in opting for the Chinese factories.
Hmmm... I guess I didn't expect that kind of a response to my question. I really AM trying to avoid getting caught up in hype of any kind and am truly trying to buy only things that I like, regardless of who made them or where they were made. But I am a true collector, and part of MY joy of collecting is learning as much as I can about the things I collect - otherwise they are just really "things." When I learn about the things, they become far more meaningful and more valuable to me than they would be just because they are "pretty." I guess different collectors have different approaches or reasons for collecting, but that doesn't make any one approach or reason any better than another. To each his or her own. I would prefer to get back to my original questions, if anybody has anything to offer. Thanks Frank and Hyper for your input (seems like they came in while I was writing this)!
WTF? He's just curious. If him being an inquisitive person takes away any joy for you, than maybe YOU'RE the one with a problem.
Yeah... I think everyone that starts off in this forum and with Japanese vinyl asks the same question. All I can say is that it didn't click for me until I held and examined my first clear vinyl piece... then it was game over.
Would you say that the differences in quality are due to a difference in the actual material or due to the process of mold making and casting? Perhaps it's both? It sounds like the molds might be a big part of the Japanese quality. But I'm sure that there are different grades of vinyl and I'm assuming that China would be using a lower grade. Do you know of differences in the casting process? This is definately an interesting discussion - I too like to know all the behind-the-scenes sort of stuff about what I own. You can never have too much info!
The main question we should all be asking is: A) What is the process that makes Jp vinyl so dope? B) Why cant we (USA) make this high quality vinyl here in the USA? Made here and of high quality. They refer to these Jp vinyl makers as "MOM&POP" My pop has a werehouse with plenty of room for me to make vinyl,I think?
Yeah, I've been thinking about this recently. Why is it that "only" Japan is able to produce a certain quality of vinyl? I can't picture some secret technique that only they're capable of. (I'd love to start my own mom & pop casting shop in my garage/basement!)
The molding processes are similar regardless of manufacturer's location. Rotational molding and slush molding (a closely related technique) are generally what is used to make these items. The molds used for toys are usually formed by an electro-metallic deposition process and are likely fairly similar in both countries. Different types of vinyl materials is a probable cause of product variation, as is an overall different cultural paradigm and economic context for manufacuring in these respective countries. Not to generalize, but when I am buying things like hand tools for example, I often observe that the quality of these items from China seems to suffer. It is just incidental that we happen to be talking about toys here, rather than countless other commodities that you could fill in the blank with. If you want to learn more nitty gritty, I suggest you start with some primers of the field, like this text:
Believe me, this is something that interests me, but I think there are many variables that we fail to consider in trying to understand why this is the reality today. I think Frank can back me up here when I say that there are a lot of environmental regulations in the US that affect this type of manufacturing, or at a bare minimum, affect the profitability, and economic feasibility of setting up shop here. There is also a tremendous capital expense for production grade machinery. To make the machines pay for themselves, you need to be cranking out a lot of widgets. There are plenty of rotational molders here in the US, and scattered throughout the world, but in the US, most of them specialize in large things like polyethylene water cisterns, automotive dashboards, and roto-molded kayaks. For these large items, the molds are typically not manufactured with electro-metallic deposition. Basically, there isn't alot of demand or expertise for small part production in the US utilizing rotational molding. The plastics industry here is huge, but focused more on technologies like injection and blow molding. To get a mold tooled for these techniques, you are talking tens of thousands of dollars (and up) easily in many cases, which factors into the large minimum orders demanded by factories. (think tens, or hundreds of thousands of units) The beauty of rotational molding is that you aren't tooling your mold, you are often forming it by plating your model with metal in a chemical tank(comparatively cheap) and using a machine that is ideal for making smaller runs of product relatively inexpensively. I think another major reason you don't see many roto-molded toy manufacturing options in the US is that it remains a cheap, easy option in other parts of the world.
I can't speak of paint quality or vinyl color, but I can of course speak of the glow quality. And nothing and I mean nothing comes even close to the quality of the Japanese stuff. TWIM, Marmit, M1, Marusan, Bullmark and others are many levels above the stuff I have that's made elsewhere. The brightness of the glow is intense. With some of my stuff you can actually see it slightly glowing while it's still in a room with the lights on!!! The color of the vinyl while not glowing is really rich and deep (for lack of better words right now).
hyperparasite is my hero. i love to hear the knowledge drop though i'm sure theres a few others around that could pipe in similarly. for me its a matter of consumer experience. do i continue to buy toys that break super easily, have extremely poor paint application, discoloration, uneven appendages, etc? some of the vinyl from china feels downright brittle. most are either in the garbage now or sold to people that don't mind substandard quality. (and i always warn them) note: i've kept some because of general aesthetic quality, like my drunken looking helpers. shit couldn't stand up with a cane. anyway, i haven't had a single issue with any of my vinyl that "purports" to be japanese. i couldn't be happier when i pay up for another beautiful piece. just wanted to have my say as a consumer since i don't know the answers to technical questions
Even though I own some... I'm not a big fan of Marmit's earlier vinyl quality.They seem to have adapted more smoother nicer M-1 type vinyl. Seriously close to selling them. As far as where you could get your toy made... If I was an artist, and my toy was falling over all the time, and the paint was falling off, I would be pissed. I think Kozik got one good J-hookup (Ika Gilas) we all dream of. By far the worse quality in my opinion. Flying Cat. I swear these are made of old Horse food and Human-digested candy. Never get one again.
Overall, the japanese quality control, and materials are better, and thus more expensive. This is why the figures are so much more expensive. As an example, have you ever opened up a bagged SB figure and even smelled the faintest whif of vinyl or paint smell (off-gassing)? Compare that to many of the figures made elsewhere. But, there are lots of good toys made in China, you just have to be more stringent about what you are willing to use and pay for, but the common denominator is much lower in both vinyl, paint and quality control. The factories are also much larger, where the japanese factories are very small (in most cases). Lastly, the reasons no one makes this stuff in the states is it is expensive to do right, and toxic as hell. Try getting permits for vinyl (or half of the other petroleum based carcinogens involved) and you will realize why there are no small factories left.
You have to take out a huge bond to get a permit to work with the chemicals needed to Roto cast. The bond covers any possible environmental problems cause by the manufacturing process. To make it work, which I don’t think you could, you would have to spend most of your time making stuff besides toys. I think Geo probably knows all the environmental legal stuff. Bottom line, Uncle Sam says “NO”.
1. Japanese vinyl molds are polished. a time consumiong pricess not done on chinese vinyl where its more 'cost effective' to just spray gloss paint on them. Polished molds make a smoother finish. 2. Vinyl quality ( I have experience from making records years ago) there is a spectrum of 'purity' and weight in vunyl pellets. A lot of chinese comapnies use extremely cheap low-grade pellets or even recycled pellets that have LARGE amounts of solvents and non-wanted contaminants. Hence you get a coarse, greasy crumbly vinyl. Japan has 'higher material standards' and the toys are made from VIRGIN vinyl, and that vinyl has extremely 'long' molecular chains, hence the J vinyl is thinner and lighter, yet smoother and nice. It also containd far less solvents and contaminants. 3. manufacturing..most Chinese vinyl is made im the worst possible conditions, with extremely poorly maintained equipment by a largely 'untrained' labor force. They are banging it out as fast as p[ossible as cheap as possible. Most of the Japan vinyl is made by people that have worked the trade for years,if not decades and theres more actual 'craft' when they make them, due mainly to the small number of pieces produced. 4. totally impossible to make this stuff here. pollution laws, availability of materials, labor costs etc prohibit it. Ive tried.
Who told you this Frank? I am just curious because it runs counter to some of the stuff in the technical literature, so I am wondering what the deal is. Quoted from the book depicted above: "MOLD SURFACE FINISH Since rotational molding is a zero-pressure process, highly polished moulds cause problems because the plastic powder will not adhere effectively to a very smooth mould. What tends to happen is that the powder pool does not tumble inside the mould-it slides along the bottom of the mould. This leads to problems such as non-uniform temperatures through the powder bed. In addition, the molten polymer cannot adequately replicate the surface of a highly polished mold. Typically, moulds are finished by sand or grit blasting, using 100 to 200 mesh particles. In this way a matte finish is applied to the mould surface." The only things I am aware of that are sprayed onto the mold surfaces are releasing agents (these can be permanent, like teflon dispersions, or semi-permanent coatings like zinc-stearate, silicone, or disiloxane. I still think that if somebody handed me a wad of cash, I could buy a machine and play around with this stuff enough to put out some manner of product, but I don't really think that it would be profitable, and I think that it would have to be an under-the-radar type of project...I still want to try to go learn the technique from the Japanese molders some day.
the molds are polished. In fact, one reason theres not a lot of the 'clear' made is that the clear vinyl is 'stickier' than the normal opaque stuff and tends to damage the molds which have to be-rebuffed. I assume you have a piece of China vinyl..feel it. the surface is matte,mirroring the matte interior. from 'traditional' cheap rotomolding mold. no pick up say a clear blobpus. feel it. the surface of the vinyl is slick, theres absolutely no texture. this would be impossible with a mold that had a matte interior..as it is a MOLD and ANY detail is transferred. hence..I will posit a polished mold..also..I think the J vinyl is actually cast either under SOME pressure, or perhaps at a heat/rotation ratio different than the chinese stuff. hence 'harder' thinner vinyl. I think the japanese stuff is made almost like injected plastic stuff..a sort of less efficient, more expensive 'archaic form of rotomoulding. rotomolding, ironically, is the 'cheapesty' methos to make 'plastic ' stuff and its funny that such a crude shitty process is used to make like 300 dollar [expletive deleted] toys. Next time I go to Japan i will get up north and check out the system and report back.
this thread has turned out to be highly informative. thanks for taking the time to explain all that Frank!
I could be totally wrong, maybe they are using silicone molds, but I am deducing from my experience in other fields.
