Discussion in 'Whatever' started by Pogue, May 10, 2006.
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Wise words from Frank. I see why this has stuck with you for 15 years.
after reading Frank’s comment, I almost want to sell my collection.
He was on the money about Secret Base!
Regular stuff rarely head North of retail, it's still circulating between the same dozen or so collectors and zero hype (or releases of interest these day) to drive guys crazy!
I think times have definitely changes, in the past 15 years, now there are probably 10s of thousands of people interested in images, with at least a few thousand actively buying. I think the change in attitude to promote some sofubi makers as artists will continue to grow prices and eyes. The issue is really, very few toy makers are viewed in high regard among the crowd looking for the next "IT" artist, and most have little interest behind them. but a lot of that perception is based on things aside from the finished product, like retail pricing, self-promotion, even things like being a Japanese tattoo artist can put you on an elevated platform for no reason. I saw an Izumonster lottery for a $600 plus toy, they didn't even promote it with a photo of the toy, just an illustration for the box. With of course nearly 100 comments begging to win. You can find many artists and toys who are better and charge a fraction of the price, but no one cares about them for whatever reason.
If you collect this stuff the bottom line is you should be willing to throw it in the garbage when you are done, because there is no guarantee anyone will still care. View the money you've spent on it as entertainment.
I think that argument is kind of corny- I think being any sort of artist beforehand puts you at an advantage- I’d rather buy a toy from someone with an artistic history as opposed to some random dude who just started making toys out of nowhere. Especially with izumonster- he has a career outside of toys and worked hard for it- the toy aspect is just an extension of his output. Look at kaws, any of the three tides artists, yadda yadda.
I know from personal experience with my fan base - I have people buying my toys who just like my art, and don’t collect other toys or anything else. They just support a working artist at an accessible level for them.
You're probably biased being into tattoos. but I see your point on Izu, my comment was more the absurdity of people lining up to pay over 600 dollars for a toy sight unseen. I could rattle off others who charge absurd prices with no artistic heritage before they started making toys. Kaiju Tan, Lamao toy selling the Garamon swastika toy for over $400, simply because of the edge gimmick, when no one in their right mind would pay 400 for a beautiful Garamon toy by someone like M1. On the flip side of tattoos, if tattoo pedigree should drive your prices to insane levels, SBs own Doug Hardee, should be selling his own toys for the same price as Izu with more demand than he can meet.
Stuff like this really bothers me, especially if you add middlemen like M-World into the mix. Similar to that artists like Longneck who may have a lotto and not list the price are problematic too. Imagine winning a toy only to find out the price is double what you expected.
I'm not one of those sofubi purists who think any 8" toy above $125 is theft and I am thankful I am in a financial position to be able to afford what I want. But there is a ton of shady shit that happens in this hobby with endless lame justification from every perceivable angle. I understand why a lot of artists intentionally put their heads in the sand after the toy leaves their hands; they're often in a no-win situation and even when they think they have it figured out some of the stuff that happens behind the scenes would really piss them off. One of my artist friends handed over the keys to his social media to his girlfriend and his stress levels are way down and sales are way up. Whenever we discuss whatever drama is happening in the scene at the time he's glad he disconnected from it.
I’m not talking about tattoo careers at all. I guarantee pushead could post a black box saying a date and there’d be a zillion comments of people wanting it, not knowing what it will be. Even rich of MVH can post a 3D rendering unfinished and get 100 “want” comments. And these comments are absolutely not meant to be disrespectful towards any of them
the Doug comment is too nuanced to get into without me sounding like a complete dickhead- but being the son of a legend does not equate to a successful career.
I think majority of people in this hobby, myself included- get jaded on the success of seemingly absurd toys and prices and the reality is there are people out there willing to spend money on anything and everything no matter if it’s a photo of a drawing, a shitty 3D rendering, or a finished sculpt. I personally would be more likely to spend insane money on a vintage toy if it were in front of me- but others choose to line their shelves with swastikas and dick kaiju.
no matter what line you stand behind, there’s going to be a level of absurdity on the other side.
ive been trying harder recently to not pay attention to it all and continue on with my own stuff.
also I totally agree with the sentiment of these being garbage in the end- no one will give a shit 100 years from now and this is a moment of fleeting entertainment while we are alive
Just gonna say, that izu toy looks awesome.
But i do agree, it is super weird to have such an expensive toy in a lottery that we don't see
I’d be surprised if any of these toys physically exist in 100 years. My clear Bounty x Hunter , SB and Gargamel figures seem like they are melting, and they’re only 15 years old at the oldest.
Coming back to the original question this thread was raising, I think it is fair to say SB isn’t playing much of a role as to what is hype and what isn’t.
I often wonder what makes a hype toy a hype toy. I personally think IG is driving a lot of people mad, including many collectors (and artists as @kid_miracleman mentioned). I have noticed with the pandemic spending waaay to much time on that app myself and feeling the rush of adrenaline when a hype toy I like is coming out. Coming from a family of art collectors, I know that this is something my parents and their parents never experienced.
I don’t think it’s all bad. It’s obviously great for artists to be able to sell their art directly to collectors without having to deal with a gallery or a convention or what have you. Its also incredible to be able to reach potentially everyone on Earth and have dans from regions you would probably never visit. It’s also amazing for people like me who like art and feel invigorated by seeing new stuffs they love, like or find interest in.
I wonder how we could get that to keep happening without hyping it to the point of getting people crazy. It’s incredibly complicated.
I think I am getting lost in my own thoughts again… anyway, I like reading others here speaking about those toys we all make and collect as plastic dolls with a end date.
1000 x this.
In regards to the Izumonster lottery, I'd never blindly pay $50 for a toy I've never seen much less $600. That feels more like a test of loyalty. I appreciate and respect the artists whose toys I've accumulated over the years, but I am not a slave to them.
This is exactly how I approach it these days. If i purchase something, its because i love it and mentally can accept that it holds no value and I'm only buying it because i purely enjoy it.
I had a long period of inactivity (initially due to unemployment) and it's interesting coming back on the board, IG and YT (and pulling my stuff out of the closet and finding that I don't enjoy it any less than the day I bought it). One thing Frank didn't predict: lots of folks in Japan are pointing to more collectors and "market growth" in Asia sustaining very high prices for certain lines.
It seems like there was a lot of sell-off in the West and certainly this board is less active. It is sad to see that stores like Super7, Rotofugi and Lulubell more or less stopped carrying sofubi (although I understand the reasons for it).
I'm cautiously getting back into it, being strict about total monthly spending, since I have other expensive hobbies (records, synths, photography) and just prizing whatever I buy in a particular month. I rarely sell anything, so for me, this means 2 - 3 choice toys a year. But it's still painful to see new RxH stuff list for $400 to $2500 when I used to get it for $40 - 80.
Sad to see what they sell lately:
Sounds an awful lot like a "lucky" bag to me.
Fool me once . . .
Very fun convo. The beating of the dead horse is always an event I like to come out to read. Lots of good points made as always. We’re not very far from the starting mark still overall.
The commodities market has only made it more and more niche to collect things. Add to that the millennial purchasing power (driven by the pop-culture geek moment) and we’re going to be necroposting about this until the end of times.
There’s a thread out there about IG taking over SB as a repository, and another one on each blog, etc. One for each thing we think will change one way and it does in another completely way we didn’t think of initially.
I think therein lies the real value to this. That we as a community of SBers don’t give two cents about collecting dollies, unless it’s the dollies we’re collecting at that moment.
I follow a few fb kaiju toy groups and I can say the taste of toys there is garbage compared with what we find here. At the end of the day, them trends do pass through here. They do come from here too. This is an important place in the scene.
This thread is interesting to me for multiple reasons, but I'm fascinated by it as a time capsule of sorts. It was created months before Facebook was opened up to general registration, and a year before the first iPhone was released. Twitter was a month old and Instagram was four years away. The way we learn about and buy new toys in 2021 is so drastically different.
I think Frank did (and does) have good wisdom regarding the market aspects of collectible toys. A long time ago, when I was considering a toy of my own, he was nice enough to do a couple of phone calls with me about the business end of things. It was very enlightening and I got to thank him for that in person at the last Designer-Con.
^^^ Also a time capsule of SB. Going back over the first couple pages of comments, very few of those people are still around.
My uninformed take is that Hong Kong and mainland China collectors have lots of renminbi along with different consumer behavior than say the West.
I never understand Kozik's stress over $15k when he is world famous and probably makes six figures or more.
He could also have probably written it off as a business expense as he is in the industry.
His idea that lasting toys had back stories etc has always stuck with me. But then:
I remember even Secret Base tried to come up with some story lines for their early fight figures.
And Astro-Mu 5, highly coveted and expensive, never really had a back story or tv show.
Some modern collectors may view contemporary toys with the same confusion that vintage collectors viewed modern toys.
I never signed up for FB or bought a smart phone.
Kinda surprised there's no significant toy collector presence on Reddit.
Have done deals on IG though and own APPL stock so not a complete luddite.
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