The place to start with von Trier's work is "Europa." It all gets a lot more complex and uneven after that. His most popular and widely seen movie is "Breaking the Waves." "Antichrist" is pretty brilliant but definitely not for everyone. For me it'll always be THE independent/auteur film of 2009 unless something more memorable comes along before January, which isn't likely. Some of the reviews I've read make it clear that the reviewers didn't "get it" at all. The movie is only toying with references to horror films and other directors. It's a psychological drama. What it is thematically is up for debate. To my mind it was about misogyny (both casual and conscious) more than anything else. IMO the film itself is neither misogynistic nor is it torture porn (although there are at least two "shocking scenes" that will be way over the line for most people, but that's Lars for ya ...) If you're a fan of either of the lead actors, this is pretty much a "must see." Er, unless you really hate art films or think that the gruesome scenes will be too much for you to stomach. What's surprised me is that nobody in the media seems to be talking about the constant allusions to Tarkovsky's films in the movie. Many scenes look like they could have been lifted straight out of his later work. The movie is dedicated to him.
This thread went from potential disaster to one of the most interesting discussions I've read in a while. Good show, gentlemen. Good show.
If people misperceive "Antichrist" as being a horror film, I think it's pretty fair to blame the director. Although the misperception isn't quite as extreme in this case, I'm reminded of Wm. Friedkin's "Bug," a very fine, very theatrical little bit of psychological drama from a few years back that was stupidly marketed as a horror film, which I think killed it by virtue of word of mouth. Lots of people went to it expecting horror and got something else entirely, so they left thinking it was "bad" or "dumb" when in fact it's excellent for what it was really meant to be. Anyone going to see "Antichrist" for "torture porn" or a scary movie about things that happen in a forest a la "Blair Witch" are going to be sorely disappointed, or at least confused. And don't let the title mislead you ... it's something to ponder for sure, but this is no Damian/Exorcist movie, despite at least one (humorously planted?) nod to "The Exorcist."
I didn't take it as an attack, merely was using the poor attempt the press tried to slap a label on it when they didn't understand it. I think it's in some ways trying to be marketed as a horror film and there's more then one who used the really off base 'torture porn' in the press which is really saved for one note garbage films like SAW or Hostel then a piece of art. Like I said, it's hard to say he's jumping genres and making a horror film because I don't see it as one. But way too many do. He's not what I would ever consider a misogynist. He's got a really bad reputation for some on set situations with some of his leading women. I think the press doesn't get any idea of what his sense of humor is and things are taken way out of context. His mother was a big part of the feminist movement in Denmark and we all know we do things to piss our parents off But I think at the end of the day after making Anti-Christ Gainsbourg says "He puts women up on a pedestal and then pushes them off, I can see fear of women, but there's no hatred." I happen to agree with that statement. Taking a look at any of his female leads I really challenge people to find female characters who are as complex as they are written by him then in most 'strong' women roles written in Hollywood. If anyone really wants to expand on LVT's experiences with women, his mother, etc. Read the book Trier on Von Trier. It's freaking fascinating. Especially the stuff about his mother, her death bed, etc. There's a lot to think about if you can go into Anti-Christ with an understanding of his work and an open mind. While all of it is dark and disturbing, none of it to me feels the least bit misogynistic or torture pornish which many in the media want to write it off as. If were going to get into Martyrs we may want to start another thread or revive the old one. I think I posted in it when I first saw it in a festival in the UK. I find it to be one of the strongest horror films of the last decade and something really powerful that the Hostel kiddies would never get out of it. French new wave horror has been amazing for years with great films like, Haute Tension, Calvaire, Frontier(s), Sheitan, Ils, Inside, etc. Now the Horde (which rocks guys, it's a lot of fun) The only film of recent memory that I hold in as high regard as I do Martyrs in the horror world is [rec] and the sequel is pretty good too. International films are keeping the horror world alive. (Drag me to Hell, Trick R Treat and a few other American films are the exception) But talking about those films and recommending Von Trier films to start with is a pretty big difference and we should really try to keep them in seperate threads.
That's a lot of insightful and very interesting facts I didn't know, thanks! And yes, I was mainly alluding to the whole Björk/DITD story and Kidman supposedly asking him why he hates women on the set of Dogville. I'm not sure I get his sense of humor either - I actually enjoyed The Kingdom although on a quite ambivalent level, as some of it seemed almost like something Parker & Stone would write while von Trier himself regularly managed to piss me off with his egomanical banter about good and evil during the end credits. Probably another instance where I didn't get his sense of humor - or maybe Lars is just a schizophrenic sadist (see The Five Obstructions) and can't tell a joke without punching you in the mouth afterwards. I still don't get why he decided he needed that pornographic close-up and all that absurd gore during the finale though; those parts just felt like a cheap attempt at shocking an art house audience by using rather blunt images and thus only made me shrug/laugh. I find that visual restraint can be a thousand times more disturbing than the simplistic use of graphic imagery - Lodge Kerrigan's beautiful and highly disturbing Clean, Shaven comes to mind. But I'm going off on a tangent. And you're definitely right about Martyrs deserving a separate discussion (although we seem to agree on that one so that thread turned out rather boring as I remember, ha ha), but since Martyrs is a film that definitely transcends its genre and is one of the most artful horror films ever in my opinion (I've even read somebody calling it "the 2001 of horror films") while Antichrist utilizes imagery rarely seen that graphic in an art house film since Salò I still believe a juxtaposition isn't that inappropriate...
I've only seen one of Von Trier's films and that's Dogville. I really liked it. I'm looking forward to Anti-Christ! I agree about Martyrs...blown away by it. Very powerful film! BTW, this should be moved.
Recent or can I get completely retarded with just El Santo films which I love more then a grown man should?
Hmm, You're the Pickleloaf I heard mentioned on a recent cult cinema podcast I bet. Can't be two. Not sure why I didn't make the connection till now!
Santo and/or the Blue Demon, either way you can't go wrong. -fighting wicked women, zombies, malo hombres...etc.
Ugh, there is so much here to reply to I didn't think it was misogynistic, though I can see how that is an easy conclusion to come to, but I think, like the torture porn label, I think it's a knee jerk reaction. To me it was about madness, fear, vulnerability and the fragility of life and mind. I am embarrassed to admit that I have yet to see Martyrs, it's on my computer, I just haven't found the time. I'm not sure if I would compare Anti Christ to Irreversible though, I'll have to think on that one. And seriously?! You rate La Horde that highly? I thought it was a good romp, but didn't add anything to the zombie genre except some good punch ups (ok, fucking awesome proper bar room fighting with zombies) but over all I think it was a trying to be more than it was... Made me think if Tarantino did zombies.
La Horde was one of the worst films I have seen recently. Painful sitting in the cinema, I was embarrassed for the film makers, the worst dialogue, pointless sub plot about the nigerians suffering, and even the set up scene in the cemetary was pointless, if they wanted to make a balls out zombie movie it would have better to cut straight to the action and forget about the flimsy plot devices they put into place, also the efects were terrible, especially the scene when he is on top of the car. If that doesn't put the nail in the coffin of all these 'France is the new hotbed of horror' then god help us. Martyrs blew me away the first time i saw it and bored me rigid the second, it is too seperate films joined at the 45 minute mark.and as for the ending please. It want's to be weightier than it actually is , the first half was interesting the second uninspired. If I want an art house horror film i will watch let the right one in if i want hostel with subtitles i'll watch martyrs
I forgot how much you didn't like it. I think you don't like it, too much It's ok, it's really not that terrible. I don't think it does much for French horror, I think people just give it more than it deserves because it's french and it has the massive set pieces, but it is up it's own ass. It's still a decent zombie film, just nothing new.
c'mon Spence, don't sit on the fence, you're amongst friends, no need to be shy about voicing yer opinion . . . .
Believe me, not a knee-jerk reaction, it's just all I got from it (prior to the interesting background on von Trier's "supposed" misogyny provided by AladdinSane). I would be very interested in (both) your opinions on the ending. After all, nature seemingly ceases to be evil after "he" has strangled "her" and he revives eating berries while the "three beggars" look on approvingly. Seemed blatant enough to me... Wasn't really intending to, the two films definitely handle different topics in my opinion. I was just using that comparison to express the problems I had with the writing of von Trier's characters in Antichrist. Aw come on... Can't be all that bad if it "blew you away" the first time around. And comparing it to Hostel is, pardon my French (ha ha), just plain fucking bullshit as you might put it. Haven't seen La Horde yet, but I can imagine it has its head up its own ass - Dahan definitely is a fucking moron who's full of himself. Will still watch it, of course...
haha gentlemen's guide? i'm looking for something outside the santo realm i have one called el violador infernal that looks totally ridiculous
Ah, so the inquiry for trashy mexican cinema was actually serious! I suppose you're already familiar with CasaNegra's catalogue? They seem to have quite a few gems in there - although I have only managed to watch Misterios de Ultratumba yet which is actually not very trashy at all but quite well made gothic horror (with lotsa fog). If this thread finally gets noticed and moved maybe it should be renamed "Arthouse vs. Grindhouse" or something like that...
@ pickleloaf Try Superargo Versus Diabolicus. Not Mexican but an Italian version of el Santo. Sort of a cross between el Santo and Danger Diabolik. Some great visuals and music score for the genre. It's quite entertaining. La mujer murciélago aka "the batwoman" is Mexico capitalizing on the 1966 batman movie popularity. Batwoman is an attractive scantly clad heroine that fights a looney scientist trying to create super amphibian men to rule the world. Much more enjoyable than Adam West.
This has turned in to a very informative thread! Thanks Admittedly I've not seen anything mentioned yet but have some of the movies on my computer to watch when time allows This link to a Von Trier short called Occupations just popped up on Twitter and I thought I should add it here... http://file-magazine.com/tv/occupations
I thought it was a lot of fun honestly. I assume all three of us who are debating it saw it in the same place recently. It's not the best horror film this year but then again if i said so far that's probably Drag Me to Hell or Trick R Treat are close to it . People will just jump on how much they hate DMTH. I liked The Horseman(Not the Dennis Quaid one), Hills Run Red was pretty good, House of the Devil, there one other I think I'm missing from Frightfest. Sorry lack of sleep will do that to someone. AT TIFF, [rec2] surprised a lot of people for being better then expected. It just seemed like it was going to be hard to do much after [rec] where it didn't come off tarnishing the original and it doesn't. It's actually really well done and plays very strong. Joe Dante's The Hole was decent, and The Loved Ones was really surprising and very entertaining. I thought Survival of the Dead was terrible.
