Did the U.S. government have a hand in the 9/11 attacks?

iv never heard of this 10 story gash before.

how about the guys who decided to "pull" the building?

dude watch the video i posted earlier, this may help you understand the bizzarre events surrounding building 7. the video is mostly fac based its not as full of crazy theories as many of them are.

 

While there was some good/interesting stuff in that video, there was also some stuff that I just found myself saying "so what" to - especially the section on demolition terminology being used ("pull", etc.)...that added absolutely nothing to their case.
But I found the info regarding the construction to be interesting - especially the fact that the buildings were designed to survive an impact like the ones they received from the jets. The comparison of the construction of the towers to that of a screen on a screen door, and the damage compared to poking a pencil through the screen was interesting.
Also interesting was their assertion that a pancake collapse (which is the official story) would take 90 seconds, but the buildings fell in 8 and 10 seconds respectively.
There was a lot of other good info that's more circumstantial, but when put together with all the other circumstantial evidence, and the few bits of scientific facts, it really makes me think that something has been covered up.

 

But to be honest your believing what you want too-

That bit you have admitted about the 'Pancake theory' and the time in which the towers fell- just stop and think about that for a moment.

That is no little deal! watch any of the video, the buildings dont collapse- they discentergrate- the force that makes them do that, and the force that makes the tons of molten steel is not just office fires and gravity.

Just think about it- its too bigger deal tha to be explained as 'strange' or and 'interesting fact.'

that is a big deal.

Anyone watch any footage of the towers coming down and tell me that it is just fire and gravity bringing them down symetrically into their own footprint, melting steel in the process.

 

"That is no little deal! watch any of the video, the buildings dont collapse- they discentergrate- the force that makes them do that, and the force that makes the tons of molten steel is not just office fires and gravity. "

Tons? Hardly. Also, you're talking about a structure that went through CATASTROPHIC structural damage, and then burned for 6-7 straight hours with malfunctioning sprinklers. Do you realize exactly how much fuel is in these office buildings? I've worked in high rises for the last 15 years. There is SO much manmade, combustible crap on these floors. Fuel for the fires. Structural damage+hours of high temp fires doesn't make it that unfeasible for a collapse. This really is a moot discussion since neither you or I are structural engineers. Like I said...you found one whackjob to back your case. I can find 10 to back mine.

"But to be honest your believing what you want too-"

As are you.

 

"designed to survive an impact like the ones they received from the jets."

It easy to say something will withstand a jet impact....until a jet actually impacts.

 

Ok-

A collapse bought about by fires, structural damage and gravity- is that what you see when you watch these videos?

None of the 3 buildings were towering infernos, you can even see people waving for help standing in the hole where the plane hit- how can they be there if it was suspose to be that hot?

Also if you listen to the recorded radio transmissions from the Firemen that day, they got up to the floors where the plane had hit and say 'the fires are small and almost out- we should be able to knock them out with 2 lines'

Again, a towering inferno? even if you watch the video of the buildings just before they collapse you can see hardly any flames- just a lot of smoldering smoke- which to me would seem to back up what the firemans last radio transmission says.

finally these radio transmissions and oral historys were purposly kept out of the public domain for 5 years, it was only when the new york times filed for a freedom of information suit that they got released.

For me it seems to come down to-

"Who you gonna believe President Bush or your lying eyes."

Read the report that they want you to believe, and then look at the videos- they clearly do not show the same things.

Regardless of any of this stuff- you still have not been able to tell me how the building managed to collapse at the speed of gravity? without explosives that is impossible and you know it- you cant argue or manupliate gravity.

BTW-

Here are over 300 structural engineers and architects who believe there were explosives in the builings

http://www.ae911truth.org/

now you have to find me 3000 to back up the official gravity and physics bending story.

 

guys what about the explosions all the firemen heard? what about the shock waves in the basement that sent people flying into walls or into the ground, these are maintenance men who have been there for over ten years. these fact cannot be overlooked!!

listen i watched the first building go down from across the river. i have NEVER seen anything close to that big come down so fast in my entire life. and if it did, why didnt it fall sideways? the plane hit one maybe two sides of the building, dont you think the uneven weight distribution would have crumbled the one side bringing everything above it crashing down in a diagonal path? the whole thing went in one big cloud of smoke and was gone. that was not ok. there was nothing natural about that. theres no way NO WAY that happened withought assistance.

what assistance?

how about all the workers after hours in the building setting up the new cable systems?

how about the fact that there are distinctive cut marks on HUGE steel pillars which can o0nly be explained from a demolition standpoint?

now thats the towers. and your gonna tell me it was a mixup of words when the guy said they were gonna pull building #7? yeah right.


you think as much as i may dislike the man that i would ever WANT to believe a leader of a country like this would ever do something like this to his own people? come on guys thats insane. but thats what he is. because nothing else makes sense.

what about the media? it was messed up. they stopped playing the reports of explosions almost immediately. whats the deal with that? you dont trust these firemen? have you seen the videos of the firehouses talking about the explosions? it cant be ignored.

what about the flight that hit the pentagon? your telling me the guy who flew the plain, this armature pilot who even the flight instructor said could barely fly, came at the pentagon, passed it, did a 180, maneuvered this plane down not 300ft above the ground and gently brought the thing into the one side of the building that had the lest people in it due to renovations?

wheres the debris from the plane? how come the manufacturers of the airplane engines say the turbine that was found DID NOT come from one of their engines? and that was the biggest piece of debris that was brought out uncovered... wait... why was there parts being brought away that WERE covered?

why did the FBI take all the surveillance tapes in the surrounding area immediately after the attack?

why was the hole in the pentagon too small to even place a plane into? the wings disintegrated? the ENGINES disintegrated? theyr bigger than a man standing!!!

why was the lawn immaculate? those engines as low as the hole in the building was, would have scraped some serious holes in the ground.
and considering the hole wasnt big enough, how the HELL did this plane make it through what was it 3 or 4 rings of the building???!!!! that doesnt make sense!!

where was the debris in the Pennsylvania crash? oh wait, anyone even remember that one?


oh. and as someone who saw the planes coming in from across the river, i can tell you with no doubt in my mind that those were not American airlines planes. they barely looked like that kind of plane at all, they were Grey.


there are too many questions, and not enough answers for me to even begin to accept parts of the official story.


forget what you want to believe people would do or should or shouldn't do. the fact is people do bad things to get what they want. hmmm the election?


but then again dont listen to me, i think Hunter Thompson was assassinated. i just cant back that one up (oh and if i stop posting i was too) : )

 

Well, that was an interesting 7 pages ...

As to the 'molten steel,' I don't think the whole conspiracy theory stands or falls on this point. Just a few things - The fires at WTC burned for at least 2 months, and with everything in the WTC available as fuel, no one could know what temperatures were reached at the 'core.' Molten metal seen and reported by firemen may have been steel, but may also have been aluminum or a mixture of other metals with a lower melting point. Molten metal would naturally be found in the basement, 'thousands of feet from the explosions" - after the buildings had collapsed, everything was in the basement, and anything molten will flow downhill.

As to 'the buildings were designed to withstand plane impacts' - Well, the Titanic was designed to survive icebergs, too. I just don't think you can draw any valid conclusions from this.

As to the size of the conspiracy required, it depends on which conspiracy you choose. Rigging a building with explosives could be done by just a few people, with enough time. No need to plant explosives at the Pentagon.

I would be interested in reading the full Pop Mechanics report, because simply applying common sense, there are still some fishy aspects to the official story. That hole in the Pentagon just doesn't look right - I don't expect a Road-Runner-type outline of a plane punched through the wall, but still, the photos taken before the Pentagon collapse show a weirdly small opening in the outer ring. All those strange cell phone calls from Flight 93 raise another set of questions, both technical and logical. Some extraordinary coincidences with the scheduling of air defense system testing that morning.

But, even if you swallow every word of the wildest, most outlandish theories - The US government planted explosives at WTC, murdered all four planes' passengers after putting them on another plane, etc. - Even if every word were true, BushCo's undeniable and now-beyond-any-dispute sins committed post-9/11 would still make this conspiracy look like small potatoes (except to the extent that the latter was used to justify the former).

If you missed it the first time, watch for reruns of the recent PBS 2-part series on Frontline called Bush's War. Bush/Cheney/Rummy lied wherever necessary (and simply misled or cried 'Unpatriotic!' wherever that would suffice), in order to deceive the American public and our allies and start a war which 1) was not merely unnecessary but affirmatively dangerous to the worldwide interests of the US, 2) has now killed many hundreds of thousands of innocent people and caused unimaginable misery, 3) is being paid for with money we don't have and must borrow (from nations who do not have the US' long-term interests at heart in lending it to us), and 4) has been used as the justification for the most egregious erosion of civil rights and inflation of government powers in US history.

So, even if every life lost on 9/11 could be laid squarely and undeniably in Cheney's lap, I don't think it even would belong among the Top Five of the most damaging things this administration has done to the US.

It is painful even to contemplate now that all of these post-9/11 horrors flowed - literally - from one decision by one person back in the fall of 2000 - If even one more Supreme Court Justice among the 5-4 majority in Bush v. Gore had managed the intellectual honesty and intestinal fortitude to simply say "No" to that legal load of hooey, the world today would be a wholly different place.

I wonder how (the survivors among) those five Justices are sleeping these days, knowing that they personally did a dishonest thing which brought about this grotesque outcome.

 

Don't get me wrong...I despise this administration and everything it stands for. It's going to take a long time to repair the damage this administration has done over the last 8 years. But I'm going to come out and say it: I just can't believe this government would purposely kill nearly 2000 of it's own people (actually, it wasn't all Americans in those towers) to set the stage for a particular political environment. I have no doubt members of this current administration have plotted and conspired since the previous Bush administration to get us to where we are today (ex. Wolfowitz and his plan for Iraq), Unfortunately, like miami said, they've shown no problem killing civilians of other countries, but I draw the line at believing they would murder that many of our own people for it.

 

i cant scratch this one up as another "we had clues and overlooked them" sort of thing. because they clearly had clues, or at least intuition on this one. yet these things were ignored.

 

Conspiracy theories grossly underestimate the intelligence of Osama bin Laden. He tried to take down the towers during the Clinton era and failed. He had alot of time since then to study the structural engineering of the towers and to plan his attack. As to those who say no planes crashed into the towers or the Pentagon, there is nothing anyone can say to convince you otherwise. Also, as far as a completely independent report goes, no report would be considered valid unless it supported your claims of conspiracy.

 

For those of you with XM, catch the replay of Opie and Anthony today. Jesse Ventura was on the show and they had a spirited debate about the 9/11 investigation.

 

Any good?

What was your take on it?

Being British and generally more reserved we tend to look at people in americia who are celebrity/ politicians as generally being 'wacky' and 'only in America.'

Although after hering Jesse speak a couple of times he does come across as quite inteliigent and not the muscle head I always thought he would be ( again being British I only know who he is from wresteling and being in the first predator film.)

Its funny though- he really does speak like a wresteler in real life- I would have though they just put that voice on.

Im sure this will be up on youtube in no time.

 

It was pretty vicious in parts, mostly because Ventura doesn't seem to be swayed by anything and tends to talk over the people he's talking to (old wrestling technique, I'm sure).

 

He didnt suplex anyone?

Again from the perspective of an outsider looking in- I am always suprised by the brutal hostility that people get from your media when they begin to raise questions about 911- I mean they are treated like holocaust deniers or some shit.

I watched this video of one guy- I have no idea who he is but he literally shouts at people to shut up when he is interviewing them. Its like a comedy sketch or some shit.

 

That's Bill O'Reilly. The only people watching him are uber-conservatives, or liberals who WANT to get worked up. I have no time for FoxNews, CNN, or MSNBC.

 

http://youtube.com/results?search_query ... arch_type=

 

i saw something where hes like "iv never told anyone to shutup!" and they showed him like 20 clips of him saying iot it was really funny.

 

Yeah thats the guy- Bill O'Riley- my god I have never seen anything like it.

Dont get me wrong- we have pleanty of idiots like him in the U.K but they tend not to have politicial opinions, much less anyone listen to their opinions, and no way would their ever get their own T.V show. The guy is a real retard.

Ha ha ha- I like Jesse Ventura, despite all the hype, he does come across very humble and makes some strong points.

Suspicious facial hair non-withstanding, I would have though that the main stream media would find it very hard to dismiss his as a 'Conspiracy theory nutjob,' especially as he doesnt point fingers or anything- just raises questions. I mean in a democracy with freedom of speech and all of that you cant stop people asking questions.

I would love to see a Jesse Ventura vs Bill O'Riley cage match.

Seriously though- if jesse did go on his show it would be very interesting- cant imagine he would get very far telling him to Shut up.

 

Is this the interview/ debate thing you were talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lUhVFpwhgE

 

Nope, that's Sean Hannity's TV show. The audio from the Opie & Anthony Show is posted here:

http://www.foundrymusic.com/media/displ ... /id/17899/
http://www.foundrymusic.com/media/displ ... /id/17898/
http://www.foundrymusic.com/media/displ ... /id/17897/

I realize that the Opie and Anthony Show isn't exactly the bastion of political discussion (for that matter, neither is Skullbrain), but it's an interesting discussion.

 

Thanks man- ill listen to them,

So your opinion as a believer of the govenment version of events-

do you think 911 debate should be allowed and given more media coverage or do you reckon its a waste of time and unproductive?

The think that I always find amazing about peoples common response to this subject is the:

"Of course we are not being told the whole truth by the govenment" while at the same time dispelling any other conspiracy thories-

I suspose it poses the question- is it ok for the govenment under any circumstances to lie to its people?

Anyways listening to that now man....

 

I don't think there is such a thing as a government that doesn't lie to it's citizens. For me, there's a gap, though, between lying to your citizens and purposely killing thousands of them...one that I can't bridge (I know it's happened, but I'm thinking in terms of the present US).

 

Samba, as I stated earlier when this conversation resurrected, please re-read all of my responses in this and the other 9/11 thread. I do not believe every word of the 9/11 commission report. I just believe more of it than you seem to.

Of course I think it should be allowed, that's part of free speech. I don't think it warrants as much media coverage, though, and I do think it's unproductive, but people can spend their time and money on whatever they want to.

Maybe. I'm reluctant to say "yes" or "no." It depends on what the lies are.

As you will see from my earlier responses, I think that there are a couple of lies in the report, and I'm fine with them being there.