So I don't know if there is some internet school for buyers to learn to scam using paypal/ebay but I refuse to become a victim of this. To make a long story short recently I've had a rash of people on discogs and ebay buy items from me, receive them, then try to claim the condition is not as stated and ask for partial or full refunds. Now being a very honest person, I never lie about condition and know exactly what the item looks like when I send it. If I say mint it is mint. I've basically not made a fuss because it wasn't worth it for 10 here or 25 there, but now someone received a 300 print from me that was in a frame from the moment I got it and is claiming it's all creased and wants a refund. I'm not going to do it. My question is this. If I cancel my paypal account, is he shit out of luck? No claim has been filed yet. I basically responded with a no and I stand behind the condition it was in when I shipped it (I shipped it in a mailing tube and it was quite sturdy). I went to any site and unlisted anything I had for sale and told someone sending me a echeque payment to cancel it (can't cancel account till that happens). I'm so sick of these people trying to scam me that I'm willing to cancel my paypal account which will in essence end my toy buying days for a long long time. I've also started the refund process of my crescent shop deposit of 100 clams. Which I guess will delay my account even more because paypal has to depsoit that in my bank. My real question is once you cancel your paypal can they access your bank account still? I sense a fraudulent charge back coming. Also does it take awhile for that to happen? I'm trying to cancel everything before this douche starts.
Re: paypal questions I don't know what the specific PayPal rules are, but I am inclined to doubt that you can immunize yourself from claims from any preexisting transactions (legitimate or not) just by canceling your account. Even if the claim is not filed before you cancel. Canceling your account would, of course, prevent you from using PayPal anymore to purchase things. And, again, I doubt that it would prevent someone from following through on a claim from a preexisting transaction. So canceling may leave you in the worst of both worlds... My guess is that there is something in the "fine print" at the PayPal site about this very scenario. I would check there and/or write to PayPal to get the answer before you take the leap. I want to emphasize that I am only speculating here, and don't know for sure. Good luck!
Re: paypal questions Thanks geo for the input. I don't see how paypal could withdraw a charge back from your actual bank account if your paypal account is null an void, but then again I don't know. I refuse to contact them because you know how that goes, they are of no help. I know I'm also willing to cancel my bank account and get another one if need be. I rarely have a huge balance in it and I'd just tell my work to cancel my direct deposit. Seems drastic but I'm not giving this person the satisfaction. As convenient as paypal/online banking/instant payments are the downside is it's too easy for people to do things to have money taken out of your account unwillingly. What really sucks is now say Zollmen has a lottery, or some great toy comes out, I'm assed out with no paypal. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but just judging from all the past topics here on paypal and how they handle things (usually in favor of the buyer or roll over for a CC company) I'm trying to protect myself before it's too late.
Re: paypal questions Chargebacks suck! In my experience, as long as you have proof that the item has been sent and received (tracking ref or signature) Paypal don't really give a shit . . . if no proof. then you're up shit creek and it's automatically awarded to the buyer (with little chance of the item being returned). If you have the photo from the eBay listing showing it was in A1 condition and you have proof it was delivered safely it's just douchebags' word against yours. As Geo state's dumping your account just means if the other party was to escalate it any further Paypals legal team get on the case, and eventually you could face legal action.
Re: paypal questions I have a delivery confirmation number and a pic in my auction of it framed. So there is proof. Also in his email he did claim he got it, but it's creased (which I know is untrue). I looked at his feedback and he looks like he sells alot of prints. So I'm thinking he just wants to resell it and wants a better profit margin (because he wants a partial refund of 100), either that or he might just send me back a damaged print he received before and keep mine (full refund option is his other choice). Well these prints are numbered so that second part would be hard. I've never been in this situation before so I'm just trying to prepare myself to not have 300 clams go flying out of my account. Which btw I do not have in it so I'd get overdraft fees on top of everything.
Re: paypal questions Sorry to hear. I always hate when people try to weasel a few more dollars here and there. In my opinion...since you have the picture, dc and everything I would tell him/her that you will not give a partial refund or anything. It was sold as is and refunds are not available.
Re: paypal questions Hmmm but can he still file a chargeback? His email says I said item was mint and I must "have rolled it too tight and cause creasing" which is complete bullshit. He goes on to say it's not as valuable now and he wants a partial or full refund. He said he could email me pics. Now this whole thing pissed me off because I know what the print looked like when I sent it and the tube was really strong. I mean if he said it was damaged in mailing because the tube was bent and ripped then I'd work out a partial refund. So I basically said no and i'm waiting for him to reply. I have no paypal balance. Will paypal try to go into my bank account and grab 300? Because there is like 16 dollars in there. Also how long does it take for that to happen chargebacks don't happen immediately do they? This has really put me off selling at all, and it's going to kill my buying if I close the account. I've been researching online and I read they can still file claims even after you cancel (I assume sending it to collections) and opening a paypal account again is really hard once you cancel. Arrrrgghhh.
Re: paypal questions Did your auction say "sold as is" and/or no refunds? Also, you said your picture of the item was in its frame, but if you took it out of the frame and put it in a tube for selling, it opens it up for claims from the buyer that the "damage" happened after you took it out of the frame, while you were rolling it up to put in the tube, during shipping, etc. So, bottom line, picture in frame when you sold it out of frame doesn't really support your case. I am on your side. Just trying to point out the difficulties you will have going forward in trying to support the fact that you sent a mint poster. Your action of canceling your PayPal account may cause you more grief (in terms of lack of ability to buy at lotteries, etc.) than its worth, and may not help you in the end. All things considered, and looked at objectively, you may want to give the douche a partial refund, and then just make sure going forward that your auctions are set up with ALL the disclaimers (no refunds under any circumstances, blah, blah, blah) for what they are worth. Also, on any expensive item, you should always use pictures of the actual item in the form it will be shipped to the buyer (e.g., if you are going to take the print out of a frame, do that first and then take the picture). I know that what I suggest is hard to do emotionally, but it may be the best solution for you in fact. I am not minimizing how you feel about it at all. But sometimes people who won't budge because of the "principle" of the thing end up screwing themselves because of it. If you can acknowledge that, but even then you still want to go forward, at least you are doing so with your eyes open.
Re: paypal questions I had a situation where a buyer filed a claim on an expensive item 2 days after paying "because he was nervous about not receiving an email from me." My Paypal balance was $0 because I had transferred the money to my bank account. Paypal removed $300, or so, from my bank account and held it until the item arrived, was confirmed by the buyer, and after a several day processing period.
Re: paypal questions You can open a new account that you use JUST for paypal. Switch accounts to the new one and remove the account you use for personal stuff so that cant touch it. Paypal is indeed a scary situation as they can shut down your regular personal bank account if its connected and they feel the need, rendering you with out any access to it what so ever.
Re: paypal questions if a claim is filed, i would at least try to request a photo of the recieved condition of the item when disputing the claim. i had a claim for an item for around $120 for a broken statue i sold on ebay. i requested a picture, and they sent one, and it was actually broke, so i don't know if this process would work or not based on my experience. just a suggestion though...
Re: paypal questions Thanks guys for all your input! I knew the best place to ask this question would be here. No claim filed or reply to my "no" has happened yet so I guess I'll have to see tomorrow. From what everyone has said and pm's received I'm thinking canceling my account is NOT the way to go. Besides not having paypal is basically saying forget kaiju (it's pretty essential to scoring). Now the only question is do I give into his demand for a partial refund of 100 or fight a claim filed (if it happens). On principle I say fight because I know I'm not a dishonest seller. But paypal and how they fold to cc company pressure also weighs in. That and complete inconvenience of not having the ability to use paypal for purchases. I still feel like this guy is totally scamming me to get 100 back.
Re: paypal questions I think that stories like this are the reason that you see fewer and fewer individuals selling their stuff on ebay. It has been all but taken over by 'businesses' that will do anything and everything to get stuff for nothing and then resell it. For what it's worth, I had a similar experience. I sold a very expensive piece of antique glass for my dad. Of course when the guy got the piece he claimed the color on it was bad and it was damaged, etc. Like this douchebag, he offered to 'settle' by taking a partial refund (of $200). I thought it over and realized if I'd done the refund, I'd be paying it out just to protect my 'reputation' on ebay (which he hinted at in his attempt to scam me) and if I askd him just to send it back, he'd surely just switch it out and send me back some piece of crap. So in the end I just wound up doing nothing. He was apprently just playing a game because he did nothing either, seeing that I had called his bluff. Sure enough, not too much later, there he was selling the same piece we'd sold him and listing it as 'perfect' just as we had... I really hope the same thing happens with you and he doesn't try to jack you around through paypal/ebay.
Re: paypal questions did you insure the poster when you mailed it? if so, you might be able to make a claim with the usps as damaged enroute!?! i surely would have insured a $300 item. or give him the partial refund and watch that bastards auctions for months and if he posts the print...then bring it up with paypal if its numbered. have someone else inquire the number, etcetera...
Re: paypal questions So apparently the jerk is making a claim because my paypal account is frozen and they stopped 109 from going to my bank account. I've never had this happen before, so it's all new to me. They say I have a 191 negative balance to resolve. Which now I'm so pissed I have no intention of resolving. I guess my next question is can Paypal go into my bank account and try and take the money? That seems highly illegal. I'm going to work tomorrow and canceling my direct deposit and I'm physically going to the bank wednesday to withdraw any money in the account just in case. At this point I really don't care if I can never use paypal again. To me principle and honor always win over convenience. This guy better pray I'm never in Mass anytime soon. EDIT: got off the phone with an actual nice PP rep. He said the case is undecided as of now, but if ruled in buyers favor I'd have 120 days to pay back that negative balance before it goes to collections and I would have to get the print back first. While I'm sore the print I'm getting back has been damaged somehow by this idiot, this definitely seems better than a chargeback. Maybe he didn't pay with a credit card and used a bank card?
Re: paypal questions Yeah this chump is a real a-hole. I mean one email trying to extort money from me and I respond saying no, give my reasons and he files a claim. If would be one thing if it was damaged in mailing but what does he want? I drop a mint print in a tube and ship it. It arrives perfectly safe and now he claims it's creased? How would any sane person respond? WTF are you talking about? Oh well if paypal rules in favor of him good luck collecting. I have 165 toys to keep me company, so even if the itch comes up I'm prepared to wait without using paypal.
Re: paypal jerk So just an update if anyone cares. Paypal ruled obviously with the buyer (guy scamming me) with the condition he return the print. He has till 5/29. It's been 4 days and still he has not sent delv. conf. I called them last night and they said if he doesn't send it by then his claim is null an void. So does paypal instantly restore your account? I'm hoping to try for KB Mad Baron on 5/30. Guy is a complete jerk he knows he can sell that print a lot higher and I bet nothing is wrong with it and he is going to resell. Chris
Re: paypal jerk I'm pulling for you Chris, hope this scumbag crumbles and you get your paypal back in order. It would be a shame for you to miss out on the MB because of all this. But on the other hand it will be one less person whom I have to compete with order wise
Re: paypal jerk LOL Rich, well I have the holiday weekend working in my favor, still have not got the delv conf number today. He's assed out tomorrow and Monday. So unless he does Tues, Wed, Thur his claim is dunzo. I'm really curious if paypal instantly refunds you the money, and if this jerk has a chance to appeal which he should not because he's had ample time. C.
Re: paypal jerk With PP, I am not too sure how you can avoid the scams but what has helped me is preparation, communication with the buyer and lots of proof. I take pictures of the condition of the artwork , record, or toy together with the packaged itemto keep as reference for those people that try to BS their way into a part refund or full etc. Sometimes taking pics in the post office to prove I sent it and sending a picture of the receipt. I also try to send photos to the buyer to get their approval of the item before sending it if it is of high value so there will be less chance of misunderstanding and unneccessary stress when your item is in the buyers hands. And I warn the buyer that if they don't pay for insurance then if it gets damaged on the way by mr.postman then its not my responsibility since it's packed well enough.
Re: paypal jerk C-man; this is a really crappy situation. I just got around to reading this, so forgive my input if it is late to the game. First of all, unless you (or anyone) is selling some NIB electronics, never advertise anything for sale (on a public auction site like ebay) as 'new' or 'mint'. I know, I know, people will say, 'but I could make more money, blah blah...' Well, true, but look at your situation now. It is the same reason why homesellers are advised never to list anything as 'new' to a homebuyer. You can say 'like new' or 'newer', but not 'new'. It leaves too much room for 'creative interpretation'. Geotaro also gives good advice to include the clause 'sold as-is'. Second, and the thing that PayPal needs to get straight, is that they are strictly the clearing house for the money. Many times, they try to act as the 'auction police'. However, one of the cornerstones of Commercial Law is 'receipt of goods'/signature = 'acceptance'. Translation: if buyer signs for the item (even though it might be a ROYAL pain in the ass), he/she NEEDS (read: should) open the package right on the spot; inspect the goods; and if there is a significant defect, refuse to sign for the item. The postal worker (or UPS, FexEx, etc.) will assist in getting it sent back. Buyer ALWAYS has the duty to inspect the goods prior to acceptance.* This also is consistent with common sense and general logic: you send me a piece of shit, you get your piece of shit back, and I get my money back. This leads to the third point. If you find yourself in one of these fraud-like disputes, save yourself the time, energy, and grief. Immediately, ask for the Buyer to return the item, and initiate your own refund of the money to Buyer. While this seems 'unfair' to you (seller), ask yourself, is it really? Better you have your item back than to be in a protracted dispute, and to have YOUR buyer privileges suspended, or worse. *One of your KEY pieces of evidence in this dispute should have been the signed bill of lading or delivery receipt. His/her signature on that slip would effectively nullify his/her claim.
Re: paypal jerk This is really sad. Ebay used to be "Buyer Beware", but "Seller Beware" seems to be the norm nowadays. Good luck.
Re: paypal jerk I believe that there is a 24 hour processing period once the claim is dismissed. I have no idea on the appeal. I think that once he has been given a chance to get his money back, and doesn't follow through, he should be SOL. But who knows...
