hi. longtime reader here, but not very active. i really like you guys. anyway, i'm very curious. big fan of Pushead's Kaws issue. when it hit the secondary markets a little over a year ago, i thought $300+ was a lot to spend. later, at $600 i thought, i'll never get one. last fall i was aware of one online store-style (on the bay) for over $1K. i watched it for several months. suddenly, over a few days, another popped up auction-style and sold for over $1K. then the one in the store sold. and yet another went for nearly $900. all of this 'fore Xmas. 2007 ... i noticed nothing until the end of April. six went out almost within a 24 hour period (maybe longer ... i'm not exactly documenting all of this). four from a seller in Japan: 2:$500, 1:$550, and 1:$580. each sold within hours of being listing. another sold BIN for $775. and the last one was ended early due to the item no longer being available. wow. that said, i'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts. i'm a long time collector. grew up during the Brozne Age of Marvel, and the rise of Kenner Action Figures. now i have a 2-year-old daughter, and i'm planning for her future (and havin fun!). if my mom had bought me a copy of Amazing Fantasy 15 when i was two, i doubt she would have paid a quarter what these Companions are going for. probably much less. is this toy one that really has history and significance? at 150 pieces, i realize just how scarce it is. and i suspect in the coming years all that materalize on the auction block will wind up in longtime collections ... i am aware of Pushead's role in the rise of this industry. i'm aware of just how hot Kaws is. i'm wondering if, in the opinion of others, this will last? will my daughter, 20 years from now, be able to really utilize the money that might come out of this figure? will it be a tiny lil'treasure of sorts? or will it be a beer run? thanks for reading.
I have no idea. But personally I wouldn't buy any toy for any amount of money with expectations that it would be worth anything in the future.
I don't know if you'll get much advice coming from a speculator's standpoint... But theres probably a thousand better investments than toys no matter who desings em. I mean by the same reasoning you could say "well if i bought google when it was 20 bucks a share...." and come up with a similar laugh your way to the bank endgame. I personally dont see a Companion putting anyones kids through college in 20 years, let alone braces in 10 with inflation cost of living peak oil etc. Most people here dont seem to collect toys as investment capital though. Just my two cents and welcome to the board
I only purchase toys I enjoy and do so with the assumption they will decrease in value. Even if they are worth nothing in the future they still are pieces of art to me.
Personally - I don't think that anything that is made specifically to be collected will ever be worth much, if anything, long term (Franklin Mint anyone?!?). That's the fallacy of "collectibles" - compared to things that were never intended to be collected, like tin robots from the 50's, "manufactured" collectibles will never be worth much. To take the example of tin robots again, what makes them so "valuable" - and even the rarest of the rare only reaches the $20k to 30k range (a nice amount but hardly a fortune for a item where only 4-5 examples may exist in the entire world) - is that these things were intended to be played with, not collected - so when a mint in the box example of an old toy shows up, it's truly an extraordinary event (it means that some kid got it for xmas, never played with it and somehow it survived not getting thrown out for 40 to 50 years). That's rare! And that's what gives it value. Most of the run up in prices on vinyl toys is because this stuff is hot and trendy right now - i think it remains to be seen whether any of this stuff will ever be worth anything. Personally, I'm waiting for the day the whole "lowbrow" art movement becomes passe because there will then a be a flood of Biskup and Shag paintings on ebay which people won't be able to give away and that's when I can get some affordable art work to enjoy. The best advice is buy this stuff because you like it and for no other reason. Although Pushead and Kaws may be popular now - the statistics on what a poor investment art is are staggering. It's something like only 50 American artists have any kind of secondary market and among those, something like only 30 have a market in excess of $30k - I'm going by memory but there was an empirical study done of this stuff and the results were mind-blowing - a new car is a far better investment than art (which makes a new car the second worst investment decision you can make). Unless an artist is doing something that the critics deem "important" - the art will never be worth any thing. And the difficult part is that you often can't know whether an artist is doing something culturally significant until his body of work can be placed in a larger context (i.e. a lot of time has to pass before we really know who made a significant contribution and who made merely decorative objects). You literally have a far better chance of getting rich buying lottery tickets than investing in art (adn I include "collectible" toys in the category of art). Having said all of that, I've spent so much money on Japanese vinyl over the past 15 years - it's embarassing. I buy it on the assumption that it'll never be worth anything - and in many cases, that's turned out to be close to the truth. But I truly love the stuff - to me it is art - it's art that makes me happy and I marvel at the creativity and inventiveness and just plain weirdness of the creators. I love this stuff more than anything else I've ever collected and - i may very well regret one day having blown so much money on vinyl - but for now, it makes me very happy to collect it. I can't remember who said it, but it's really true: "the ones who invest in collectibles are the ones who can least afford to." Invest in a mutual fund if you want to plan for financial future. But the whole collector toy thing is so temporal and tied into this particular cultural moment in time, I'd be absolutely shocked if any of this stuff retains it's value over the long term. My 2 cents.
While I think that a lot of the imitative and mediocre "lowbrow" art that has sprung up in recent years is likely to be worth next to nothing in the near future I don't think you can necessarily lump someone like Biskup in with that as he has shown a lot of depth and growth in his work and isn't merely a graphic designer with a cute concept. There is a long term risk I'm sure in oversaturating the market with a rapid succession of large-run prints and loads of ephemera but hopefully the more talented artists can navigate through this dilemma
Although I ALWAYS hear people say, "only buy what you like" I think this has to be the biggest horse shit quote ever, I see soooooo many people buy shit because of the hype created and alot of times buy 2 just with the intent to flip one later.
oh shit.....I was collecting to finance my retirement....guess I should have put money in my company's 401k...Damn Pushead!
Just to follow up - i agree completely that people are buying as a short term "investment" (i.e., flipping) to make a quick buck and those people have no interest in the toy itself. Short term money can, and is made by these people. But whether a Kaws, Pushead, Biskup toy will be worth anything 15 - 20 years from now when the next generation is into something entirely new and unforeseen to us now - well, I'm pretty skeptical about that. And whether it's going to have the kind of appreciation that will pay for your daughter's college or even keep pace with a decent mutual fund is laughable (no offense to anyone). On the other hand, a vintage Hawaii version Eleking of which there may be only 2 or 3 known examples in the world - yeah, that'll probably retain it's value and even appreciate because there will always be at least a handful of wealthy collectors who are willing to plunk down $20k for a toy they may have to wait 15 years to have a chance at - if they get a chance at all. But even a toy that's limited to 50 - wait a couple of months (or even weeks) and one will appear for sale someplace - they're just not that rare compared to stuff that you may have to wait a lifetime to acquire. ok, that's my 4 cents.
I think if someone bought the copper companion for retail, they already would have made money.. but getting in this late in the game only to buy for profit seems a little silly. If your looking to flip, or long-term flip, keep you eyes to new releases you CAN get in on at retail, so you are not disapointed when you lose all yo money. I still say buy what you enjoy.. and have fun.. have fun buying what you enjoy!
Vinyl art is ultimately a collectible. Things like high grade Silver age Richie Rich comic books command insane multiples of book value on Ebay as do certain CGC'ed and non pro graded comics from Bronze and Silver age (well Gold too and even some modern). Wacky Packages, Baseball cards, Cookie Jars (thanks to Andy Warhol) you never really know what there is going to be a market for later. Vinyl is so new its too early to say whether it'll be like comic books with a strong market in the future or beanie babies. I doubt vinyl will be beanie babies with no value but you never know. Don't expect to get rich with vinyl though (unless you're a popular artist or a CEO of a corporate entity selling it).
thanks a lot everyone! I love this shit. no one I know buys vinyl, and I am the subject of many jokes and question marks among the few friends with whom I do hang with respect to my hobby. like I said above, I am a collector. it's in my blood. when I was six Star Wars came out and my mom always told me to take care of my toys. she said some day they would be worth a lot of money. so my prospects were double: wonderful toys that made me very, very happy; and an idea for the future. turns out she was right about Star Wars. she was also right about comic books, at least, until the 90s ... good point about collectibles and the production thereof. after the underground explosion in the mid to late 80s, everything kinda went silly. comic books were being made especially for collectors in 2 or 3 versions, bagged and such. and yeah, I agree with the tin robot analogy. in my opinion, and this is not because I’m a fan today (I’m not), Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1, published by Mirage in the 80s, has the potential to be the Modern Age Action Comics 1 or Amazing Fantasy 15. how many are still out there today? there were roughly 1000 printed on newsprint, and they appeared before many other alternative presses hit the mainstream (the turtles were to comics what Nirvana was to music ... only comics haven't had the pimp that Sonic Youth was to Cobain). TMNT effectively changed the industry. and the creators were totally astute (dedicating their effort to Kirby and Frank Miller). afterwards, alternative and underground comics broke. everyone was doing it, and yes, today, very, very few are remembered. TMNT 1 once sold for $1K in the store where I was working back then (I believe the cover price was below $3). today, it could possibly sell for $300+. that doesn't mean it's less important. it might mean that the turtles have gone very tame, and lame. but it could mean the history has yet to be written or embraced. I still hold on to hope. but I didn't buy this comic 20 years ago with an idea to sell it. it was just easier to spend $125 one summer in the 80s if I believed that some day I just might get some money out of it. I loved the old black and white comic, the smart take on Miller's Daredevil and the naughty language these guys brought to the shelf. comics were growing up. they had been for some time, and there's a history to prove it. but once alternative comics broke, nothing was ever the same. so it goes with vinyl today ... I do buy lots of stuff I know won't be worth anything. because I love it, and I love to show it to my daughter. but were I to spend over $500 on a single piece, I would have to believe in the value of the item to some degree, the value as external to me or my happiness. I would never spend so much money on something I didn't enjoy or think was totally cool (take Pushead ... I was a skater in the 80s, and spent much of my high school career ripping pages from Thrasher and taping them up in my locker), but $500 is so much money. I’ve been a stay-at-home dad for over 2 years now, and my wife just barely makes enough for the three of us. if I dropped 5 bills on a toy, I’d be staying away from bars for at least six months! so very generally true: ""the ones who invest in collectibles are the ones who can least afford to." but when Geffin pays millions for a painting, he's not stretching himself. he's taking history by the ears. now fine art is a different game, but don't forget that in the 60s any comic-reading kid could send a few bucks away for a nice silkscreen by Jasper Johns or Roy Lichtenstein. I’ve seen them years later with 4 and 5-figure price tags. were they "lowbrow" back then? I tend to think not, but why were they peddling their work in comic books? I largely agree that collectibles are rather archaeological in nature. but I don't believe this represents an exterior limit to the cultural value of these items, today’s vinyl revolution. I do believe a movement can grow and grow until it achieves some sort of status for itself. rather than entirely archaeological, I would call this organic. the current movement in art-toys does find its roots in Japan, in the cultural explosion that took place in the late 90s. Kidrobot would not exist without Medicom. and Medicom would not exist with Kaiju, vintage love and the sorts. will it slow and die? maybe then it’ll be up to the archaeologists. I guess I’m hopeful that all will not be forgotten. I’m hoping that teenagers today will someday have the cash flow to revitalize the toys we’re currently enjoying. Pushead is central to the movement, as is Cocobat, and the boutiques that rose during the same period. if I am misguided, please push me in the right direction. everything we collect has a larger history. books, records, comics, toys, art. they all come and go. but sometimes something so large happens, it cannot be forgotten. I’m hopeful vinyl toys will always be around, even if the artists behind the designs fade. I’m hoping the next couple of generations pick up and run with it. thanks for commenting. I really do love this board, and I’ve totally enjoyed reading the comments. you all are great. lastly: buy a Copper Pushead x Kaws Companion, or not? what would you do?
It would depend on the price of the Bronze Pushead Kaws Companion $500- $600 yes probably. At $1 k no. I collect that piece though. Have silver, black, and green. Not fond of the GID so have skipped it but the Bronze looks incredible.
It sounds like you're looking to us to help you rationalize for dropping 5 bills on a toy. If you want it, buy it. But if I dropped 5 bills on any toy my wife would have my balls in a split second... again it doesn't matter who designed it Mrs. Lincoln would kill me. Beware!
Uhm yeah this so so true. You guys have wives and kids, my personal life's a trainwreck but I have disposable income...
well, I wont help you rationalize the purchase, but I will help w/ this: Buy it for the right reason.. Because you honestly enjoy the toy and it brings you happyness. Dont buy it because you expect to make a buck..
I'll sell you mine for $1200! It'll TOTALLY increase in value too! I promise*. *promise not guaranteed
Believe it or not, I'm a CPA. It's one of the reasons I can afford to buy some of this stuff. Let's be rational here. We're talking about toys. I don't know how many 40 year old virgins there with $500k in unopened toys but I buy my toys to open up and display (well, not my handpainted skullwing). Don't get into this hobby for investment purposes - instead buy stock. It's simple, buy low and sell high - Just like flippers do. Here's some advice - don't buy the bronze Kaws. Take your $500 and consult an investment advisor. Invest your money in a 529 savings plan for your kid's college education.
thanks again everyone! my wife and I are investing along the more traditional channels for our future, and our daughter's. have no fear. CDs, Mutual Funds, 401Ks, etc, etc. i agree with everything you all have said. I was just curious about your thoughts. what i'm hearing is: A) buy what you enjoy, don't even think about $$$; and B) vinyl is not yet a solid investment. more confirmation here than I'd hoped for. I'm gonna hold on to hope, tho ... see you all in 20 years??? I'm very curious as to what the response would be had I posted on Kidrobot instead of here. I prefer this board. I am not very active on either, but I've been a longtime reader here and there. there seems to be essential differences between these two bases. a lot of us are members to both, and post on both. but the differences are so obvious, and go beyond toy type. anyone mind refraining from commenting if I do post there? no secrets, but I would like to get feedback and avoid "hey, we've already told you dumbass ..." or anything like that. just wanna see what's in people's heads. thank you again! happy trails all ...
glad we can help. i think that would be a great and interesting experiment posting on that "other" board. I have a guess about what kind of advice you'll get there. You're not an undercover reporter writing a story or a social scientist writing your thesis, are you
But when they tell you to invest in mass marketed shite designed for bubblegummers don't believe them. Britney Spears thought the ride wasn't going to end too.
undercover ... HA! you caught me. i'm actually doing market research for a Britney Spears action figure ... complete with wig and Justin Timberlake exploding torso. we're tryin to get mp3s to play outta her bum, but the other toys in the lab keep melting! Pushead tattoo or Kaws panties?
